Well, as usual there is more drama in Gor then need be... and I dont get it...
First and foremost, I do not get or understand why a Man argues with a Woman in any way... or why a Woman bothers arguing back with a Man... Is so childish to Me...
Now.. there is a BIG war on Buzzen Gor... One side says... When a woman is collared her past in cancelled, and yes WHILE she is collared this IS true..
The Other side says When Freed a FW may resume where She left off..
But what happens when and IF She is Freed? Anyone ever read Book 4 of Gor?
Dina of Turia was when we first met her, a slave, a very famous one actually, one who had been a beloved daughter to a Baker and a member of the caste of Bakers who fell slave and her family gone... Then she met Tarl who was kind of fond of her and ended up Freeing her... Now anyone knows what She did next?
Why she returned to Turia and reclaimed Her Heritage, Her Father's Bakery and her caste...
Now did She re-open Her Father's Bakery? Nay, Why? Lack of funds... And The Man who killed Her Father for refusng to sell His place to Him would re-enslave Her for doing so... as He wanted the Bakery for Himself
But she did take back Her name... and She did work in the field of her caste as a Buyer for FW of higher castes in the Bakery markets buying pastries and other delectables since they would not trust a female slave to do so.. Interesting...
I would like to remind many people... a collar removes all a womans rights and again while collared her past as she is while collared, less then in many cases an animal, but the collar does NOT remove past learnings or memories... If once trained as Tuchuck Sooth Sayer one still retains them trainings in her memories, the collar does not make her forget how to fortell the future, just the right to do so... and IF Freed... She can be Free to do so once again...
We are women... not idiots... collars enslave us... not make us mindless dummies...
Lets get it right people...
I wish You well and the joys of actually reading the books...
Pamela Rene'
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Interesting. Dina was not the only slave who retained name and caste when Freed. I think this is an issue that needs to rectified. So many slaves have retained their names, heritage and castes upon being Freed. That needs to be taken into consideration.. But arguing about it doesn't help the situation.-LàđŷĶąţţ¤ĨŁΜ¤Ẫħĭģã¤ČőF
This is something I never really thought about, but your memories dont die just wearing or not wearing a collar. There is something more for Goreans to argue about and debate. Although it is interesting on this issue didnt the man who was collared by the Panter girls got freed from Tarl Cabot and resummed His position? The lines might be getting crossed with death, retirement with whole thing. -This is something I never really thought about, but your memories dont die just wearing or not wearing a collar. There is something more for Goreans to argue about and debate. Although it is interesting on this issue didnt the man who was collared by the Panter girls got freed from Tarl Cabot and resummed His position? The lines might be getting crossed with death, retirement with whole thing. -Vexin Kraft
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In the context of Gor, arguing serves no purpose. Being here for over ten years, I have ALWAYS said that unless you die, women should be able to resume their lives once Freed. Since most women choose not to continue the lives that they once had, I don't see what the big deal is. If people read the books, they will realize that no woman of Gor, Free or slave, was without trade skills. TormFM
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Tarl Himself was enslaved and freed or escaped several times across the course of the Books, and as mentioned, several women were freed who returned to their old Homes, took their old name back etc.. But if they come knocking on My door and try to tell Me how to run My Camp.. I will swiftly relieve them of their scalps and take a look to see if the brain is missing, or simply not being used. -Sumanitu Taka
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When a FW is collared be it time collared or contractural collar or force collared, she loses that name and her caste while she is in that collar, when freed either with manumission papers or without if the Free gives her a name that she had when she was Free and gives her her caste back, it is withing his walls rules then no one outside of those walls can tell Him what to do as that slave/FW was His, and people should butt the fuck out and let it be. the only time a FW doesnt gether name back is if she is killed as a slave.
I wrote this comment. I am Lucian Hold Jarl of RHH and I stand by this decision.
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I would not normally comment on gor issues since i have left gor, but I was asked to take a peek and give my thoughts.
before i give my thoughts on the subject i would like to say that i made many great friends in gor and i hope to continue to have contact with them. I think that we all were drawn to read the books because we found in them this harsh and romantic world. Myself i loved the way the slaves of the south were so gracefull and i wanted to be like that more than anything. The gor today is not the Gor i entered 8 years ago and i hope some how in atleast one home it can be restored.
I dont recall anywhere in the books where it says a female has to start over with each collar or with change of owner or when given her freedom. Not all may agree with Pamelas view on things but hate to tell everyone she is dead on this one......READ THE BOOKS
Females that think it is alright to argue with a male in open roleplay room are wrong. As Norman said "Gor is a Males World". If the females dont like it, well.....find a sweet lil D/s room. It is the responsibility of all who enter gor to have read the books and know how and what to do, but it is also the responsibility of the Males to keep things on track.
I wish you all well -Shawna
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Now... Do any who can now read and post have anything to say here?
I think this is less an issue of being "strictly by the book" and more an issue of "how do we apply the books in this particular roleplay situation?". On one hand by the books a woman enslaved and then freed would not have a loss of Caste however if it were truly by the books women wouldn't be getting freed so much. If a man was unhappy with a slave he would likely sell her or kill her rather than free a slave. Only a fool frees a slave it is said in that same book Four.
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it the issue at hand is one of a Caste having made a rule years ago to remedy a problem in Roleplay. Some women had a habit of jumping in and out of Collars and when they didn't like it they got themselves Freed only to regain their former status as Physicians. It became a matter of how the Caste was seen.
How many of you would want someone to treat your wounds who was just fetching your drinks not three hands ago? How many of you would with a straight face respect a Physician who was kneeling at the feet of Men so short a time ago? To have submitted willingly is to have said "I choose to serve over practicing My Caste". Why is such a choice forgotten simply because the Collar is removed?
Tarl still struggled with the mindset of a Gorean man when he freed Dina if I remember correctly. He had been torn over his instilled values of growing up on Earth and that is why he Freed her. He did not understand how any woman could be happy as a slave and since he cared for her he did what he thought was right for her.
All that aside. I ask you all a simple question. Is it really too much to ask that a woman simply undergo a refresher course in her Caste upon becoming Free again? What with the lack of overall training as it is in the first place could a once over training course hurt?
There comes a time when we must make adjustments to acquiesce to the limits of Roleplay and this obviously has been one of them made many years ago by the Green Caste. Much the same as "Guilds" were formed online for Castes so as to standardize the application of said Caste. Having accepted such things we must also concede to the issues therein. If the Head of such a guild questions the validity of someone's position in that Caste it is for no one else to interfere in such matters. It is unwise to argue the codes of another's Caste.
is it too much to ask that Honorable people practice what They preach ..
ReplyDeleteTrain for Caste Each Life it ain't Her New Life
I don't know the whole story of the issue at hand, nor it is relevant. I realize Gor is meant to be different from earth, but similarities are still there.
ReplyDeleteTake the life of an Earth Woman. Proudly doing work within her field of expertise. Along come someone who persuades her to change her life for him. She does willing, along with the name change and stops practicing her art. When finally released of her shackles, she does return to her art. She may need an bit of a refresher course, but can still practice what she knew before.
A slip in the matters of logic and love for a man and wishing to do what you feel is right for him, should never diminish what the mind has worked for to build and retain.
I would like to thank all who have said their piece on this very subject...
ReplyDeleteAs well as those who will after this…
In all honesty, being the damn Libra that I am, I do indeed see all sides of the story.
MY point is… Look there was a discussion without the name-calling and belittling.
Now shall we go onto the next discussion?…
As i see things it is a matter of home laws.
ReplyDeleteThe slave was give to me.
I changed her name to suit me.
I then released her back to a FW she kept the name i had given to her.
As to the caste i have already started giving her a refresher.
End of story and since i cannot get it to post under my name will go another way I am Phelan
This issue seems to keep coming up when we see a new person that "claims" a caste. For myself and other Physicians, we have a strong passion to make sure that those who "claim" a caste of the Physicians are trained. We do question them on their skill and their training. We ask them who trained them. We ask them questions on how they would handle certain situations. A lot of the times, we get the answers, "its non of your business". Sorry but it is our business. We want the caste to be solid and true. We do not want to hear the later reprocussions of "so and so" did this...and now can you fix it?" We, physicians who have trained" take high pride in our skills and our training. It's a high accomplishment when after a year of training we get that certificate that we succeeded in our caste.
ReplyDeleteThe situation on returning to caste after freed is questioned because so many jump from collar to Free...to collar to Free. We call them, "flip flops". They can't decide if they are wanting to be enslaved or freed.
I have always stated, not only does those who have been freed retrain, but also a refresher course be established for those who have been a physician so long but hasn't practiced. What is the difference? They haven't been enslaved, but they have lost the knowledge of the caste over the time frame. Why not have a refresher course? If you were a Physician on Earth, you would undergo many training and education with the technology out there. For r/p purposes...why not continue to learn. I'd like to continue to learn myself. I think there is a lot out there I don't know. OOC...I am NOT a physician r/t...or in the medical field. For r/p purposes I learned by a traning program and I can r/p the hell out of being a physician. Its not about putting a bandaid on. I do very highly detailed r/p. I LOVE to r/p. Sadly that is being lost.
Now as for the FW who returns. I would say, if a physician that is establised looks at the character and sees she is skillful, than let those of the caste know and as a caste we all accept that person as being true. We have to learn to trust others and know they are true to who they claim to be. If you want to join the Physician caste and are questioned, dont get all offended, just know we are wanting to preserve the caste to being solid.
Who would want a physician on earth to do a surgery on you and oops...Remove a knife from the thigh and oops...cut open the artery in the leg and bleed out because they didn't take better care, or in Gor, mess up like giving a serum shot in the spine to make a person paralysized or cut open the chest and hit an artery and oops....forget that happened. Oh that's ok...its nulled cause I said so. Sorry folks, if you value your life in your character you will want one that is trained.
And one last point, I read on another posting... Bashir isn't the only one who is able to train. There is myself, Samantha, and Phelan. We all can train in the caste. There might be others from other realms also just as skilled. Why are we limiting ourselves. Hell I'd like to learn from the others if their willing to open up and r/p. We tend to become territorial in our stations. Protective! We need to start being open minded and really just enjoy the r/p instead of nit picking and being so angry!!
Jolieene, Physician of KoRoBa
If everyone put this much time and effort into practicing their own Caste, there would be much better roleplay.....
ReplyDeleteIf everyone would pay more attention to their own Caste standards, training, and codes, there would be much less bitching about the way I enforce Mine.....
Don't "boo-hoo" at Me for enforcing existing Green Caste standards upon the Physicians, because you are the same people who complain about other people who aren't trained.....at least I care enough to actually DO something about it (Hear Me Quan?).
Quite simply put: I don't interfere with your Caste, so don't interfere in Mine.
Ludo makes a great point: If the Head of such a guild questions the validity of someone's position in that Caste it is for no one else to interfere in such matters. It is unwise to argue the codes of another's Caste.......again, at least I care enough to make sure that people are trained to the established standards that have been in place for years. If you have information to share, then by all means, share it. If everyone were trained to the same standard, then everyone would get treated the same way. And BTW...Jolieene, Samantha, and Phelan train Phy, not just Me. They are the best, even when we disagree (which does happen on occasion).
But remember this, if you pop into Gor with Phy or Healer tags, rest assured that you will be questioned about it, and your claims verified. If they can't be verified, if you have no proof, or refuse to provide it, then you will be branded as a phony. If you have training, then simply provide proof of it. Is that really too much to ask? Don't "hem and haw" about it, because We will be all over you and you will be exposed. If you do have proper claim to practice, then you will be welcomed with open arms. If you are lacking in certain areas, there are 4 of us here more than willing to help you achieve that goal, provided that you meet Caste standards.
I'll say it again: Do you have what it takes? If so, let's talk.
Bashir
Greetings All,
ReplyDeleteI am finally going to reply now that most of Whom I was waiting for has now made their thoughts known. First off this has gotten into even more of an area than I think Pamela originally intended. I have been Niyahlove for 12 years. I have had My name changed to suit whatever I was doing but My memories have been here for 12 years. I was a slave for a long time then freed. I have been a FW for over 7 years. I have not flip flopped from collar to FW to collar to FW. I was an active Physician in CWK for a very long time. Isollae trained me in slave healing when I was a slave of AFH and later when I was Free She trained Me as a Physcian as Lady Eir. That being said (not that I owe Everyone an explanation as I have tried to explain this but with little cooperation)My training occured when msn had old comms. Lady Eir sent Me Her entire Physicians Comm zipped in email and I had unzipped it and had everything on My computer. As MANY of US KNOW computers crash. How many times has someone said Hey I lost everything all my files? That is exactly what happened to Me. I have not been able to recover them as the computer is fried. When I happpened to go through email I did find the comm again in a zipped file. I opened it but MSN comm boards were not available as it had been to long. Once again unable to obtain anything. Was I ever asked to take a test or to try to show My skills no. Phelan watched Me over the time I was Free and seemed to find My skills suited for the caste.
The above is just for clairification of what I had tried to provide. Yet Everyone here sits and talks of Others being well suited to train. Yet Bashir still claims to be the Only One to judge the Green Caste. He may have a training guild but there are several available as I have Kuruuk's and I believe Some have TW's old one. I believe every home is responsible for its OWN caste system. Not outsiders. If You want credentials then ask but I have not been asked by One Person Other than Bashir and the People I did work on said I did good work. Thunder Wolf being one of them when He showed up in GCN under Another name at a DM and said You do great work keep progressing. I did. He also kept in contact with Me in IM for a time period which I enjoyed receiving good skill suggestions. I do do a very good role play as well. I as well miss the days of great role play. con't
With all of that said........when a person is collared for whatever means according to the books the collar takes away their family and belongings but please people think how would you erase a slaves memory? Especially after a month. Now I have seen numerous Free Who have been collared and when released returned to their old place, life and Caste without a blink of an eye. BUT for some reason I was singled out and I do believe it was alittle more personal than not. I do not believe ANYONE should be penalized for being in a collar and trying to make them start their lives over again it is just not reasonable. IF they collar hop then have a special rule dealing with just that. But this just went to far. And pounding someone in IM over something IC is mentally abusive. If they say stop leave Me alone or stop I have had all I can take then respectfully back off and try talking another day but to keep at someone over r/p is just not respecting the HUMANS behind these keyboards. I do not speak that I was the only one hammered in IM there were a few people and to them I am sorry it turned this way.
ReplyDeleteBashir I respect You want Your Caste done correctly I think everyone does. But You can't be the only ruler of the Caste. I think Other Homes need to be allowed to follow their own rules as it says A City's Laws are to be followed by Any that enter or r/p there. If You don't like how a Home decides how their castes are handled do not r/p there. Anotherwords Gor is Gor. Homes are Homes because They r/p how They want to and no one has a right to try to change that for anyone.
I wish everyone well. Everyone's comments have been very informative and appreciative. Thank You Pam for bring out this issue.
I am Niyah of Fina
Tal Niyah,
ReplyDeleteWe have spoke a few times in the past and I did inquire on who Issolae (sp>) was and Emir. I was told she was a Healer not a Physician. However I also learned Kuruuk was one of the first to create a comm for Physicians and the one Thunderwolf (TW) created and had us use.
The thing is, you say you have the comm information that Kuruuk and Emir had created but in your post above you say it had been disappeared. I find your words contradicting. Now I am not judging you on your words or honor, I'm just intrigued it's changed. I do have the IM that states you have it. I would be curious to see such information you have to get a glimpse on what you were trained on.
Am I saying you weren't trained in the art of the caste, no I'm not. I'm just wanting some kind of clarification. You are right on the each laws of a city are it's own. The thing you have to see is..."we" are trying to ensure the caste of physicians is not falsely represented by someone who says they are something and not actually trained. There are two in buzzen who openly admitted they have not read the books. Openly admit they have not been trained, but are with tags PHY on them. We do not discriminate when we inquire. We actually are told by other Goreans....."hey Jo, there is a new PHY....check to see if they are real or not please". We get this by other goreans...so they know if they can call upon them or not. So we do investigate. Niyah, do not feel as if your being singled out. You aren't. The thing is, we are wishing to just ensure you are real.
My take on this is.... Bashir might disagree...however, if Phelan has confirmed you are in fact trained, then ok. However when you submitted openly to being a slave, I see it as you came back as a FW....and so now you need to do a refresher course. It can consist of...just simple testings on what would you do if?? It's to reacquaint you back into the caste.
As Ludo said, would you truly trust someone who knelt before you and served you as slave? What if you whipped said slave and punished the slave harshly, then later she was freed, would the other free truly trust that slave to be among them?? Would they wonder if that said slave would dare to come back and take revenge upon that Free that was harsh? And being in the caste of the Green....remember we have very good knowledge also on how to take a life without it being known. So trust among goreans is something we take seriously.
I have sat back watching, listening, and listening some more. I have read many scrolls upon this topic. You have quite the following and have created much drama in this situation instead of as a woman saying..."I will do the refresher course and prove my worth as a Physician...as a woman of Gor". Would you not want your fellow colleiges in the caste to step up on your behalf and support you and assist you when there are times you need help instead of others of the caste shaking their head seeing you as a hoax or joke physician?? cont.....
Until we as Goreans stand up for what we believe, than its not going to change. The Physician caste is under high surveilance and often criticed. We used to be the ones who announced if a warrior died from injuries when fighting was often displayed. We used to be the ones who were highly respected in our words when comes to the health of other Goreans. The sad thing is, the physician caste has slowly dwindled like the warrior caste. But the ones that are here, do cherish what it has become. We are trying very hard to keep it pure. Buzzen and GCN have mindled for many years now. We r/p together...when buzzen was down, we went to GCN or that other realm. That is why we travel from place to place to ensure our caste is not being misrepresented. We have rules for a reason and we have had them for sometime now. You are not singled out in being enforced to follow them.
ReplyDeleteAs for the abuse....Niyah, you have the right to block someone in IM. You have the right to turn off your IM. You have the right to just stop talking to the person. But to claim abuse...and anguish. Please! You are an adult. Dont claim abuse unless you want to be abused.
If you wish to discuss this further, my IM is Jolieene@live.com.
As a woman, just prove yourself to be worthy of your skills. No different than a man who is a warrior and challenged. If they can't fight...then it will mark them for who they are.
I wish you well,
Jolieene
Jolieene,
ReplyDeleteTo clarify My post on the comm situation. I had the entire comm in a zip file in email unzipped it on my old computer before MSN was gone. That computer was fried. However when Bashir asked Me if I had scrolls of My training I started looking through things I have. What I found was the zipped folder which has the comm that has everything except the what We now call forums which after unzipping it and clicking on that part it takes Me to a you have reached a page that has been discontinued or whatever the msn thing says exactly. I was surprised to find that I still had the email from Eir as She passed it to Me prior to Her withdrawing from Gor. I made Her a promise about that comm and I am sticking to it as I have discussed with Phelan and I will show Him the information. As for the refresher course it was never mentioned until Ludo posted and suggested it. I did in fact tell Phelan I had no problem doing a refresher course and I do not.
If it had been suggested in the beginning I would have happily complied. But in fact that was never even offered as an option until Ludo posted it here. As for the rest I will be glad to discuss with You privately as My post was meant in a very unemotional filled spirit. Not in an defensive or attacking manner.
I have noticed the dwindling of the Castes actually of Every Caste as People leave due to whatever reason.
Again this post I believe was made to simply show in the books there were Free that became slave and released to return the their Caste,Home and families.
thank You
Niyah
Tal Niyah,
ReplyDeleteYou are right in the books people did get enslaved and returned to their homes and caste, however think about it. We are in r/p not in the books. We take the ideals of the books and bring them into r/p. If you read the books, Norman contradicted himself on many occasions. He would say one thing and switch it to another. So technically anyone can take a quote from the books and make it work for any situations.
But for us role players, we have to have guidelines or Gor is going to be the cluster mess it is now. People doing what they feel they want because its "their" Gor and by damned I pay the internet bill so I can do what I want. That's where things start to get twisted and turned, hard to soft! That's when we lose the beauty of the risks in Gor. Rules have been made so that we all have a common standard to follow so its enjoyable and fair to us all.
The post turned personal when it started to use names. That is why I directed the last one towards you. But my post was meant as a means to show what the Physician caste is trying to accomplish. As for your situation, do come speak to me. I am also a trainer in the caste and I use the comm information that TW and Bashir had given me. I created the new training comm so that its easier for us Physicians to pull information and guidelines to keep consistant and use what we know is from the books of Gor in the Physician caste. Some is brought from earth medicine because the books was very limited on what the greens were wrote about.
I do not know what all Phelan and Bashir have spoken on your behalf, but I do know that Bashir is trying to keep the rules as they were. Perhaps it wasn't suggested you take a retraining course because of the fact there was so much more "drama" brought out instead of offering the simplicity of a refresher course. I was the one who has spoken to Bashir and Ludo in IM about offering you a retraining program just to make it legit. I wasn't the one who initially begun this research on your credientials (my spelling sucks lately...ughs). So I respected my fellow colleagues to handle what they begun and are trying to accomplish. I will continue to support them or discuss with them things that I feel needs to be addressed. For any caste, it shows you all a solidity of who we are and the fact we all want to support our caste to the fullest.
Thank you for the clarification and the replies. I do hope this matter is handled like adults and it gets settled soon. I have faith it can be dealt with and we all move on to having some amazing role play.
Jolieene, Koroba Physician
I am Samantha, Physician of Asperiche. Bashir is the head of the Physicians Guild and allthough Phelan, Jolieene and I can train, it is Bashir who makes the final decisions. We are all a part of an important and functional Guild in Gor. Allthough I am sure Bashir takes all the comments and suggestions into consideration it will be Bashir who makes the final call in this matter, just as TW did when he was head of the guild.
ReplyDeleteThis has become a cluster mess because to many people have been drug into it and it has nothing to do with them. Characters want to do as they please without consequence, homes want to make home rules that go against caste guild protocol and this is why Gor has become what it is.
Samantha, Physician of Asperiche
And now, Physicians of Gor, it is time to put this to rest.....
ReplyDeleteOpinions have been made and rebuttals posted. The remaining issues will now be returned to Caste business, where it should have been kept from the start.
To those who posted, thank you. You can see from these postings that the Phy are passionate about what we do. Please, do the same for your Caste...that means learn, train and practice. Keep your Caste Codes close to you, as we do ours.
To the phonies that are still out there: You know who you are, and so do we. I offer you the opportunity to make things right. Contact Me for further details.
Thank you for your time.
If the Men are more inclined to free rather than sell or kill a slave here, that sounds to me to be a difference in the MEN not in "this particular roleplay situation."
ReplyDeleteAlbus Niall